062. Think it’s too late to start—or grow—your family in your mid-forties? Meet Gayle, the “original cougar” who defied “geriatric” labels to intentionally plan and welcome two healthy babies at ages 42 and 45.
On episode 62, we sit down with Gayle, a mother who proves that “the right time” doesn’t always follow a traditional timeline. After leaning into her life as a self-described “original cougar” with a younger partner, Gayle navigated the deliberate and joyful planning of two pregnancies at ages 42 and 45. Her story is a refreshing departure from the typical “geriatric pregnancy” narrative, focusing instead on the intentionality, humor, and deep desire for siblings that fueled her journey into later-stage motherhood.
Gayle opens up about the realities of conceiving in her 40s, the importance of trusting her body, and her surprisingly fast birth experiences. Whether you are currently navigating fertility over 40 or simply wondering if it’s “too late” to start again, Gayle’s journey offers a powerful reminder that motherhood is just as vibrant and possible in your mid-forties. Join us for an inspiring conversation about defying labels and embracing the unique timing of your own family story.
About the Guest
Gayle Haddock is a vibrant mother of two who lives near London in Brixton with her fiancé, Dean, and their children. Embracing motherhood on her own terms alongside her younger partner, she playfully dubbed herself the “original cougar” while navigating the deliberate and joyful planning of two pregnancies at ages 42 and 45. Known for her humor and “can-do” attitude, Gayle defied the “geriatric” stigma with remarkably fast births, proving that intentionality and trusting your body can lead to a thriving family story in your mid-forties.
Connect with Gayle:
- Instagram: @gayle_haddock
- Website: Hustle and Fox
Key Topics
- The “Original Cougar” Mindset: Navigating age gaps and starting a family with a younger partner.
- Intentional Planning: The decision-making process behind having two children at 42 and 45.
- Defying Labels: Moving past the “geriatric pregnancy” stigma to trust your body’s timing.
- Fast Births after 40: Gayle’s surprising experiences with labor and delivery in her mid-forties.
- Building a Sibling Bond: Why Gayle chose to go back into the “baby phase” for a second time at 45.
Resources & Links
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Transcript
Jamie: Gayle, welcome to the show.
Gayle: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s so nice to be here and to be able to chat and share my story.
Jamie: Yes. Gayle is joining us today. She was pregnant at 42 and 45. Yes, and I, I think we are going to share her story at 45 and then reference her pregnancy at 42. So take us back. You had your daughter. Were you preparing and planning to have a second?
Gayle: We’d, we’d been, well, I think she was probably about two, and I was like, okay, what are we gonna be doing?
Like what are we, what are we thinking? And I am from a family of four kids and my other half is also from he’s one of five. So, we were both from big families and it was, I def I always wanted a sibling because I have a really close bond with my siblings. And I, I have that family unit and I was like, I just couldn’t imagine an only child.
I’d definitely wanted another, I think Dean was just getting his, my other half is called Dean getting his head around it. Really, but having another one.
But yeah, he was definitely up for it if I could, because he, I think it’s this is the time to say that my other half is nine years younger than me.
Jamie: Oh, I love that. Yeah.
Gayle: So I’m an original cougar. We’ve been together for almost 17 years. So, you know, I was definitely ready for the kids and stuff before him.
Jamie: Mm-hmm. Did you track your ovulation and any of that stuff to help you get pregnant?
Gayle: I think at first we didn’t. I didn’t because I with my daughter Roxy, I hadn’t really tracked it. I think I’d just gone into the light.
We’re just gonna have sex a lot type type mode. That’s what we did. When I was pregnant the first time, we were like, right, let’s just go back for it. Let’s just go, this is what happened the first time. We’re gonna go and just have sex at all, at all times. I think I’d got to the stage when I was getting pregnant with Roxy that I was like, literally, we’re gonna have sex every night, even if you don’t like me.
Even if we’ve had an argument. Do you know what I mean? We’re still gonna, we’re still gonna be having sex tonight. And then a friend and it, and it was sort of working. I didn’t feel like we were in sort of a panic or a rush or anything. There’s so many conflicting things, isn’t it going on in your head when you’re trying to get pregnant?
Because you’re like, I don’t wanna like just be rushing and trying. You don’t wanna put too much pressure on it because then it doesn’t come become a fun thing to do, does it? Mm-hmm. Like, come on, we have to do this. And also you, you wanna talk about it. You don’t wanna talk about it all the time. You don’t want it to have to take over your lives.
You wanna be relaxed and be like, oh, if it happens, it happens, you know, blah, blah, blah. You try, that’s what you try. But also in your head you are also saying, oh my God, we need to get this, we need to get going. We need to get going. I’m getting older and, also, I don’t want a massive gap between, you know, my first and, and second if it happens and all these things going on in your heads, but you’re trying to be like, it’s like a swan, isn’t it? You like, mm-hmm. Oh, I’m gonna be fine. I’m gonna be zen. Then I did download like a period tracker app for my phone so I could see the days they told me I was definitely definitely ovulating and, ripe which I use quite a lot.
So I was like, right, okay, now we can see. And then I think sometimes in your head you’re like, oh, when you start looking at that tracker, you are like, well, listen, we’ve only really got, I remember saying to Dina, I went, listen, we’re gonna have if we have sex every night, but look.
According to this, it’s almost like you’ve got seven days a month or something like this. It’s actually a very short period of time. Yeah. Isn’t it officially, I mean, officially I believe it can happen at any time, but if you start looking at those apps, it’s like, this is the time. And I’m like, if we don’t do it now, if you are out, if you are, if you’ve gone out for the night and I’m busy the next night, we’ve missed two nights that’s a whole of the month gone.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Gayle: So then you start thinking, okay, let’s just do it all the time. We then we start going back to the method of having sex every night. Mm-hmm. Method, I think we sort of had a break a little bit, maybe not a break. We just relaxed, actually sort of took the pedal off a bit. We probably took the pedal off and, and it wasn’t happening.
So I decided that I was going to bite the bullet and go to the doctor because I was like, we can’t just keep going at this and it not working. If it’s not possible anymore, I need to know. I need to have the knowledge and the power. But that scared me, obviously, because again, it’s information you want to know and don’t want to know at the same time.
Jamie: Definitely.
Gayle: They came to a point where I had to know, I thought, what, you know, I, I don’t know. So I went to the doctor here in London. It’s just my regular what gp? Gp I’d actually stayed with the SA even though we’d moved house in between my pre my two pregnancies. I actually stayed with the same doctor from my previous house.
Because I think once you know, sort of your doctors, it’s nice to stay with the same people. Mm-hmm. Also, I was like, well, if I get pregnant again they have community midwives there. And I don’t know if you understand what I mean by when I say community midwives. It means that in certain places all across the uk certain areas have what you call community midwives.
And it literally depends on where you live. It isn’t like, oh, that’s a really like posh area or a poor area. It’s literally wherever you live in the, whatever doctors you are associated with or counsel you’re associated with the community midwives, it’s more like when you meet the team, the midwife team, more often than not, you will see the same midwife throughout your pregnancy and that midwife will potentially if she’s available, be at the birth of your child. So you get to know the same midwife all the way through.
Jamie: That’s nice.
Gayle: Yeah. I thought it was a thing. I just thought that was how it go, because obviously that my my doctors has community midwives and then I started talking to other people and I was like, yeah.
And they were like, oh my God, we’ve never met the person. Do you know what I mean? And so I, I feel lucky that this is where I live, so I was like, I’m gonna stay to the same doctors anyway. So I, I went to have I don’t, it was a blood test for fertility, but to check my levels.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Gayle: And the doctor was like, yeah, we can check. So I was to have a blood test on day 13 of my ovulation on day 21. To check the levels. So I was like, okay, we’ll just carry on and we’ll wait for the results. It wasn’t a long wait. Maybe, maybe a week, maybe a couple of weeks, maybe even less. And I remember we were in the park and she phoned me and she said, oh yeah. Real cash, you know, then they phone you in a real cash casual manner. Yeah. Gayle, there’s nothing wrong. You should be completely fine. Your, I think she said your estrogen is a little bit high, but here’s the thing, I was still breastfeeding Roxy. I am here to break the myths. I have breastfed basically the whole time.
You come back and get pregnant when you’re breastfeeding anyway. So she was like, yeah, it’s completely fine. I’ll see you, we’ll do the next test on day 21. I never went back to get my day 21 test because I was already pregnant. I,
Jamie: my gosh.
Gayle: And I think that that’s what, why my estrogen was a little bit high because I was actually already pregnant.
And I also feel that once I relaxed and went and took that decision to sort of go, I’m going to go to the doctors and sort of see if I’m okay to carry another child to get pregnant. My body just relaxed a bit. Wow. When I got pregnant.
Jamie: So how long did it take?
Gayle: I’d say on and off. I mean, on and off, on and off.
On and off a year, let’s think. We, we, we were engaged the year before. So yeah, I’d say a year and a bit maybe of like on and off trying and then really trying and then like, oh, okay, everything’s fine. And then relaxing. I think having speak spoken to a lot of other, and this comes from also from, speaking to my other half about it, about the pressure, it’s, it is a two people thing,
getting pregnant and I think they feel it as much as, as you do. And yeah, I think once we relaxed a little bit yeah, I was lucky enough to get pregnant with number two. Wow.
Jamie: So were you just late on your cycle? Is that what prompted you to think you were pregnant?
Gayle: I think that I, like with Roxy, I sort of knew, I sort of knew and Dean always says he sort of knows. I just think I just never had another period. I just, yeah, I just didn’t have another period and I was like, oh my God, i’m gonna check Uhhuh. So I did a, just a home test.
Jamie: Mm-hmm. And what were your thoughts when you saw that po positive pregnancy test?
Gayle: Oh, it’s just, you know, beautiful, happy relief and joy, I guess. Mm-hmm. But also then the fear. Yes. It’s like happy and joy and fearful. Oh my god.
Jamie: All of them feeling
Gayle: all over the anxiety, the sort of anxiousness and you want to relax and really enjoy it. But you are the, you know yeah. And excitement and I was just really happy that it was, I was gonna be able to, do it all again. But I am that person that doesn’t really tell a lot of people until I’m, until we have got to that three months.
Jamie: Okay. The second trimester.
Gayle: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Till we’ve seen, like had a scan and seen I dunno how it goes there, but you have to wait a certain time before a scan and then another scam unless you obviously pay for as many scams as you want, but on the NHS you wait a certain period of time.
So yeah, we always waited until. For three months before we sort of started sharing it with everyone. I mean, I, obviously I told close friends and, you know, my family did I even tell, I mean, I still wait. We still keep it a little bit. We kept, , keep it as for us for a bit. And obviously I didn’t wanna tell Roxy, my daughter, I wanna tell you a really funny thing.
And this is the thing. This is what happened. My rock’s all coming back to me now. So she was at nursery. She was at nursery, and I dropped her Roxy up. I dropped her off at nursery. And when I picked her up, the nursery teacher said to me, oh, she says, you’re pregnant. Congratulations. And I was like, oh, I’m, oh, great. She said, oh, she’s completely adamant that you’re pregnant. I was like, oh, well, I hope to be soon, but I’m not. I’m not pregnant. I, that was the week later I did the test. She knew. She knew. I know. Like, I know. Why did she tell? I mean, I don’t know. I hadn’t even done the test, so she was right.
Jamie: Wow. Even a kid’s intuition.
Yeah.
Gayle: If you know my rock, if you knew my Roxy, everyone would be like, yeah, of course. R You knew?
Jamie: Wow. That’s amazing.
Gayle: Oh, it was. I was like, and also what was I entered a competition to, to win, like a Mother’s Day competition, like a bundle for some nice products and some clothing for when you’re pregnant.
And I’d entered and I won, and I gave it the whole prize, which was quite a really like decent, like go to a shop, have, buy some pregnancy outfits, some lotions, and like a really nice gift. The Sunday, it was mothering Sunday. And I said, I said to my friend, oh, here she was. She was about four or five months pregnant at the time maybe a bit more.
And I gave the price to her. Oh, how fun. I didn’t know, I didn’t know. And then, you know. 48 hours later. I, I was, I knew I was pregnant and she was like, oh my God. I’m like, of course you’re keeping it. I’m keep you’re keeping it. You’re keeping it. And to this day, she, she enters competitions for me, like, I’m gonna win it back one day.
One day I’m gonna get you a prize
Jamie: trying to pay you back for that. Yes.
Gayle: She’s like, oh my god.
Yeah.
Jamie: That’s sweet. Well, tell us how was the pregnancy?
Gayle: It was great. I was, I actually really enjoy being pregnant. I enjoy the I dunno, I feel really free and confident and also you get treated really nicely everywhere you go.
And I completely lean into that. I, but on the flip side, I also have the worry and like, is everything gonna be all right? Is everything gonna be all right? Is everything gonna be alright? You deep dive into ridiculous stuff on the internet and you, the more you are in some motherhood, especially being, this is my second the stories of heartbreak were at the forefront of my mind more so than with my first, because, I wasn’t so surrounded by other women that were pregnant or I’d had kids, whereas suddenly in the second, you’re, you’re amongst it a lot more.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Gayle: And you are sort of more aware of things that could go, that can go wrong. And I was worried. I think I was probably, I think the more you desperately want something to be true you almost don’t believe it until you’re holding a baby in your arms. And I think that. And you sort of don’t allow, sometimes don’t allow yourself to be like, fully like in it or in love or until the final moment, even when you see a baby on this, I mean, when you see the scans. Yeah. Otherwise, I mean, apart from that I was obviously I’m a geriatric mom. I don’t, again, I don’t know if you, how, what the name that you have in the states, but in, same in, in, is it same? Mm-hmm. So I was immediately given a consultant. So what they do, they give you a consultant and they’re like, okay.
And I was like, okay, this is the second time where I’ve done this and this is, I’m gonna have to go and sit and the consultant wait for another appointment with a consultant. And they would say, they would say, okay, why are you here? Are you, have you been told to come here? Like, the only appointment you are having is because you’re old, as in like, that’s the reason you are here.
There’s nothing else wrong with you. You are here having a consultant because you are, because you’re old. You’re in that bracket. And I was like, yeah. So once they, once they were, giving me tests and stuff, they were like, okay, there’s nothing, there’s nothing else wrong with you for want of a better word.
And they were like, if something flags up your, your midwives will flag it up. So, you don’t need to come to another appointment unless the midwives, you know, your midwives tell you that you should. Good. But I do feel like although the term is somewhat derogatory mm-hmm. Completely unnecessary.
I feel like there just needs another word for it, because it’s almost like on your notes, they’re like, it’s giving them an extra reason to check on you. And I’m like, if I’m here for all the checks, check away because I wanna make sure that this baby is here and safe, mm-hmm. Although I’m not here for, I don’t love the actual term and women are having babies a lot later now.
And I, I do believe it does sort of make them check you a bit. Mm-hmm. Check you a bit more. And yeah, I’m sure women that are are my age need those consultancy appointments, those extra appointments to make sure everything’s okay. Mm-hmm. I had probably. Maybe only once I had to go in for when the midwife can’t hear the heartbeat with her little, like, stethoscope thing and they’re like, you need to, I can hear, but it’s faint.
You need to check just sat deciding where the baby was lying. Lying behind your placenta or something. But they need, they need it to be like on a machine rather than, you know, in the doctors you have to go to the hospital. But
Jamie: I bet that was worrisome.
Gayle: Yeah. You and I was like, yeah, I’ll just walk, I’ll just walk to the tube and then get the tube.
Sometimes, you know, you do those crazy things like, why don’t I get in a cab? Why should I get a taxi? Yeah. I don’t know. It was just like, oh, I’m okay. And I remember coming out of the cab and, and coming out of the tube station and seeing someone I hadn’t seen for ages and like, like arriving in their arm.
I’m like, oh my God. Oh. And started bawling probably as I met them. Yeah. But again had a lovely hug, went to the hospital and they looked at me to say, everything’s fine here. Like, and you’re like, oh God, okay. I just, I just had a nice worry for a, you know, an hour and a half. And then they’re like, okay, pop you on the machine and they check the and you have to sit on the machine.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Gayle: I think it’s for an hour to check your blood pressure, the heart rate, everything mm-hmm. And what the hospital thinks, and what your doctors think can be slightly different. Mm-hmm. And I understand there’s, they’re very busy and there’s, women there literally having have always, I’m lying in one cubicle and there’s a woman next to me in the next cubicle, the curtain along, and she the doctor just went, you’re having the baby now. Like, literally like, and her husband was there and, and I think two or three of her, I think at least two or other kids were with her. And she was so calm and relaxed and I was like, I’m gonna be channeling this.
Jamie: Yeah,
Gayle: this other woman, this other woman, I was like, yes, you just, let’s be, let’s be sad.
Jamie: So did she have the baby right then?
Gayle: No, they, they sort of wheeled them in. This was the, this is the, the main, it wasn’t like, there wasn’t women having babies rounding that I, I’m, they took her into the, into like the ward or a birthing room or something. But yeah, they were like, let’s move you now. Like, she wasn’t even like moaning or anything.
Jamie: What about finding out the gender? Did you do that during pregnancy? Yeah.
Gayle: We hadn’t, for my first, we hadn’t found out. No, we wanted a surprise. Well, I think we wanted a surprise. Yeah. We were like, let’s have a surprise. There’s not a lot of things. You get that. It’s gonna be a complete surprise.
In my heart, I really wanted a, a girl, and again, I, just wanted to be. Happy that it was a baby. Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? So we didn’t find out the first and I remember giving birth and with my daughter and the, the, the midwife, her head was out and the midwife said to Dean, right, the half, what do you think?
I think it’s a girl. Do you think it’s, and he was like, yeah. And I was like, oh, I think it’s a girl. Oh, I think it gave me that extra push. Yeah. The last bit.
Jamie: Yeah. I do the same thing.
Gayle: She also had hair lots of hair and the midwife went like this to the top of her head and like, pull, pulled the hair and said up front and, and she said, look, you can feel.
And so I, I was able to put my hand down and feel the top of her hair.
Jamie: Oh, neat.
Gayle: I know. So with sorry, I’ve completely forgotten what the question was. What was the next, the question? Oh, the gender. The gender did I find out? So yeah, so again, my daughter was adamant that I was gonna be having a girl and I was saying to Dean, I went, the thing is we better find out should we find out, because if it’s not a girl, you know, she might be like really disappointed as in like, we don’t wanna be building up, building up.
Maybe we should find out this time round so we can start saying, no, actually, it’s definitely a boy if we, if it’s a boy or a girl. I felt like this is our second pregnancy. We were probably weren’t gonna have any others. More like, let’s, let’s do everything slightly different.
Because then we’ve had experience of everything. We’ve had experience of not, of not knowing. And then now we’re gonna have experience of knowing. So we did find out that we were having a boy at the scan that they can do the gender reveal. Mm-hmm.
Jamie: How was that?
Gayle: I was, I looked at Dean and I was like, ’cause he. He really wanted a boy, and he wouldn’t ever say that, but I know of course he really wanted a boy. And when it was, I think midwife like, look, well that’s not a leg. Look at that. That’s definitely, she’s like, it’s definitely a boy. Like looking at the screen. And Dean was like, oh, Dean was and I think I remember looking at Dean and then I burst into tears looking at Dean rather than scan because his face of just like, of joy.
Mm-hmm. And it again, then I was in like, oh, I know I’m having a boy. It’s really weird. I’m growing a boy. I’ve got a boy inside. It was, I don’t know, it felt weirder for me having carried a girl and then to be having a boy. I remember saying to my friend, I’m like, I’ve got a Willie inside me. I’m growing a Willie.
It’s really weird. And I, she was looking at me. But yeah. And I was, I don’t wanna say I was disappointed, but I was like, if this is only going, if I’m only going to be able to have two kids, I was like, do I want another girl? So they’re really close and they have each other and they’re like, sisters, sisters, because, I’m really close to my sisters.
I love my brother too, if you’re listening. But I was really like, do I want my daughter to have that really close sister bond? And if I’m only gonna have one of the, one and a baby, do I want another girl? So I did have that feeling as well. So it was a weird feeling finding out that I was having a boy, I obviously assumed came around to it and it was fine.
It’s not like I was disappointed. It was just loads of mix of feelings and mixed emotions, and then suddenly I was excited about it, excited about it in a whole new way because again, it was gonna be completely different and everything was gonna be different and, and knew rather than sort of doing the same again.
It was, it was all gonna be different again. So yeah, it was, it was so nice. And then and one of my best friends, her and her brother get on, are our best friends. And I was like, oh, you know, they’re gonna be like that. It’s gonna be fine. There’s, there’s lots of brothers and sisters that get on really well.
Jamie: Yeah. So tell us, which way do you prefer finding out, or a surprise?
Gayle: Oh, i, I dunno. I don’t know. I think that it’s quite nice that we didn’t really, we Okay. So when we found out, we didn’t tell anyone. We just, we kept it to us. Oh, okay. So again, it was a secret for us to have, we obviously told, we told Roxy in a way as if to say, no, we know it’s a boy Roxy.
It’s definitely a boy. And she did. She was like, oh, okay. She sort of got it. I said, well, look, this picture, can you see where it says it’s a boy? It’s definitely a boy in mommy’s tummy. But then she, we thought, oh, she’s just gonna go around telling everyone it’s a boy. But she didn’t. And, then we didn’t really tell anyone.
I think I probably slipped up slightly a couple of times. I slipped up massively like the week after on my family WhatsApp group. And. I was like, delete, delete, delete. I’d made some comment about my my nephew. I was like, oh, you’re not gonna be the only boy. See, I was like, what am I doing? Like, because there’s only girls and there’s him.
What, what doing? Whatcha doing? And I deleted it, and then I didn’t delete it for everyone. You know, when you just delete it for yourself? I was, I was like, I did it to you quickly. So. My little sister was like, Hmm, obviously this is a boy. But it’s like everyone else in the family just forgot, girl.
They didn’t even realize it, they just didn’t really register. I was like, no, I think my sister’s like, is this a massive hint? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I just meant he is the boy in the family. I was like, yeah. But yeah, so we didn’t really, we didn’t tell anyone. We told a couple, I told a couple of really of close friends that I was gonna be spending a lot of time with
like some mm-hmm. Work. A couple of work people because I would just naturally slip up. But yeah, I didn’t, we didn’t really tell lots of other people. Then we had to think of a boy’s name and that was, that was a good job. I feel like it’s a good job. We needed all the time in the world because it felt 10 times harder.
Jamie: Uhhuh, I get that. And what about products? Was there anything that helped you through pregnancy that you could recommend?
Gayle: I wanted to recommend the things that of getting pregnant and then things that I continue to take. So we are also all told to make sure that we take folic acid. But my, my friend who lives in another coun who lived in another country at the time, she was like, yeah, but when you get folic acid over the counter here, or like the normal stuff, it’s only five milligrams.
And she said, make sure you get it in a higher dosage. So I did. Did it help me? Maybe it did, but I’m here for all the things that may have helped me and may not have helped me. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I took folic acid I think at 10 milligram rather than five. Mm-hmm. It’s like the, the higher percentage.
Also, there’s something called Zyme, QQ 10. Mm-hmm. And I, never mentioned in the no one, well, in a normal GP scenario, not mentioned. And my friend who lives in another country had said that her doctor had told her to take that. And I started taking that.
Jamie: And how did you prepare this time for baby in birth?
Gayle: Well, I mean, I was work. I mean, I was working, I’ve always worked sort of for myself, so I was able to sort of not do, I was never, I never have done like a nine to five type job. I prepared by looking through all her clothes and seeing which ones I. A boy could wear, I guess, that sort of thing.
I didn’t do lots of other, lots of other prep really. I just carried on my normal, I would say my normal life. Mm-hmm.
Jamie: Really? What about classes? Did you need classes this time around? No, I didn’t take any classes. Mm-hmm.
Gayle: I don’t think, we didn’t even, I didn’t go to any antenatal classes. Any NCT classes? Nothing.
Jamie: Were you preparing for vaginal birth?
Gayle: Yes. But I didn’t really have a birth plan. I was very, I wanted to be relaxed about it because I know that birth plans don’t often go to plan. It’s like a, they call it a birth plan, but really it’s a, anything can happen as long as there’s a baby at the end of it. I’m good with that.
Jamie: Yeah.
Gayle: So that was my plan. I was like, whatever happens, and however they bec they, they are earth side in a healthy way, that’s good for me.
And that’s what I say, I’m like, I’m not, I wasn’t overly planned. I didn’t want it in a certain way. So because they knew Roxy was so fast, this is what we had to plan for. Mm-hmm. Because, once you’re first is fast. The second is probably gonna be fast as well.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Gayle: Because I was, you know, in the geriatric form older mom, they immediately, when I was pregnant, they were like, oh, well, we’ll get you to 35 weeks. They were like saying, I was like, hang on a minute. I wanna go as far as I can go. I don’t wanna, can we talk about that at 32 weeks or 33? I, I don’t really wanna be having that conversation at 12 weeks and, or 20 weeks or whatever, 25, 8 weeks. I wanna get to the, you know, early thirties and then start making decisions about what we need to do.
And what ha because let’s see how my pregnancy goes before we start, like making decisions about what’s gonna happen at the end of it,
Jamie: right.
Gayle: So, so I was like that, that’s the only thing that I said. I said, I’m not gonna make any decisions until it, it comes closer to the edge. And they were like, okay, that’s fine.
And they were like, okay. And then I think at about he, yeah, he was due in November and it was just the beginning of November and they did a size test, you know, when they predict how big your baby’s gonna be.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Gayle: And they were like, oh, he’s gonna be, he, they kept saying, oh, he’s gonna be big.
He’s gonna be big. I feel like he’s gonna, he’s gonna be a big baby. And I was like, oh god. Okay. And then, so they were like, so we, you shouldn’t go over a certain amount of time. So I then spent the, later it got, I remember sitting in one of those waiting rooms waiting to see a midwife and them going, well, we don’t because of things that can go wrong, we don’t really want you to go further, much further in the pre,, mu he’s, he’s going to be big and we don’t want you to go much further.
So we are gonna look at induce in induction indu. And I was like, okay, I didn’t really want to do it, but again, I am of the ilk. I wanted everything to be okay and safe, but I still wanted it to be in the same sort of environment as Roxy had been born. In that lovely room, you just, I’m like, this is, this is the sort of thing that I really want.
So they were like, well, I’ll tell you what we’ll do, we’ll speak to the consultant and we’ll speak to the head midwife. So we had an appointment with the head midwife. I was like, but they wanna induce me on like Thursday afternoon and it’s already Tuesday. Can I see her beforehand? Like, when am I gonna see her?
Like, it’s Tuesday now and they wanna introduce me on Thursday. And they were like, right, we’ve got you an appointment on Thursday morning of, but come in ready to have a baby. Like, so, like Uhhuh. Okay. Which is really weird for me. Like, , I didn’t feel I wanted it to be in the natural way, but I, wasn’t, I didn’t know what an induction would look like or how it would work.
Jamie: How far along were you?
Gayle: I was like 36, 37 weeks. So I was quite close. It wasn’t like it, you know, it wasn’t like it was like a month earlier or anything like that. I just felt like, because I’d done it before, I didn’t really want them to tell me what to do, but also I wanted to be in a safe place, so I wanted to speak to the head mid midwife.
And so I had that appointment with her and she was very matter of fact, you know, that those sort of almost like right. They come in and go, right. It’s like, okay. So she checked me and she also gave me a sweep as well. I might, I might as well give you a sweep while I’m here. I’m like, okay.
She was like, right, well, everything’s fine. And I’ve given you a sweep and you are obviously going to have a baby very soon. She said, if you go home, if you go home today, you’ll probably have a baby over the weekend, but if you go home because you were so quick last time, you might not be able to get here.
So what they were saying was that if I just went home and went into labor, whether I would be able to get to the hospital in time, in a safe way to then, have a baby. When I hadn’t planned for a home birth, whether it was gonna be possible, I didn’t really wanna have a baby like in an ambulance on the road or like, you know, Dean was like, I don’t really wanna be like on my own catching a baby. So she said, what I can do is break your waters for you. Right? I can do it right now. And again, it’s just one of those really weird scenarios where I was like, okay, so Roxy’s staying at a friend’s house, so she’s okay. Because we thought it might happen, the induction might happen. So we’d sort of arranged for her to stay over.
And she was like, yeah, then. And I was like, so you’re gonna break my water, so I’m then gonna have a, she was like, yes. So then you’ll have your baby today.
Jamie: Whoa. It’s so surreal.
Gayle: It is. I was like, okay. And I said, in this room, in this room, I said, if you do it, can we stay in this room? And she went, hang on a minute.
And she went out to check and she said, yes. She went, there’s no one else booked. You can stay in this room and have your baby here in this room, which was a home from home room, which is what I wanted the room next door to where I’d had r.
Jamie: Oh, that’s neat.
Gayle: Oh, no. So I was like the same. And if you the hospital, it, it is amazing.
The view from these massive windows in this room is of the Houses of Parliament and Big Ben.
Jamie: Oh, wow.
Gayle: Yeah. It, it’s, we’re talking like, this is a London baby. Welcome to the world. This is, this is, yeah, this is here. It’s, yeah. So I was one room down and I was like, okay, we can stay here. We know where Roxy is.
So she broke my waters. And which again was amazing because she, they do it with like, you know for want of a bad, it’s like a crochet, it’s like a crochet needle or a knitting needle. They just, I don’t think Dean even realized it was happening.
It had happened. He said, when they gonna do it? I said, so done it.
Jamie: Oh my gosh.
Gayle: I was like, that’s it. It wasn’t like, I don’t know. She was, that, it was as simple as that. Do you know what I mean? It wasn’t like, because obviously I was ready. Mm-hmm. They were just giving me a little like, we’re gonna happen.
Let’s do it now, rather than like 24 hours later. And it’d be like, so yeah. So then I went into, I went into labor not again, not straight. I was like, oh, this is really weird. Now I’m just waiting. Now I’m sort of in this, in this room waiting. So I said like, Dean, go and get some food. So he went down, he went to the, like the shop in the hospital and got loads of like buffet selection of like, and they dunno what to get.
So he just sort of gets everything, loads of food, put it on the, like the wind, I remember the window edge of this, this big windows we have and listen to music. It was quite nice to be fair because it was like, this is the time that you have with your other half and when you have other kids and it’s all, it’s always like it’s them.
It’s them and them and something else and something else in your life to have that couple of hours where we just sort of chatted and listened to the radio and ate random bits of food. I mean he ate, I was like, I dunno if I was, and I stood there with a towel in between my legs sort of going, because when someone breaks your waters, it, there’s, it’s quite a lot.
It’s sort of like a gush, and then suddenly it sort of keeps coming. And every time I stood up, and I’d never had that buildup before because I’ve gone straight into like full on contractions with Roxy. I hadn’t had like such a buildup. And I was like, oh, this is really weird. Is this, is it? Am I, am I having contractions?
I hadn’t worked it out. And after about an hour or so, the midwife came in and she’s like, lemme check. She’s like, yeah, okay. Still everything’s fine. You’re coming. She’s like, are you having contractions yet? And I was like, I don’t think so. Anyway, she later, she later says, you were definitely having contractions.
She was like, your pain threshold is obviously like really high.
Jamie: Wow.
Gayle: And I’m just like, oh God, we uncomfortable for a minutely, uncomfortable. Oh, oh, it’s weird. Wow. And be because contractions come and go. It’s not like it’s a, it’s a really weird pain to describe because it’s. It’s not like a constant pain.
Like, if you break, you know, if you hurt your arm or you hurt yourself, it’s like, oh, it’s constant, constant, constantly goes away. Whereas a contraction is like, pain, pain, pain, pain, relief. Mm-hmm. Pain. And then, because I was always going back into relief, I was like, oh, okay. Just like, and then suddenly I remember the, I called, she’d gone out the second time or whatever, and I called her back in.
I was like, okay, now okay, now we’re going now this is it. This is it, this is it. She was like, oh my God, I was to call your midwife. She then calls the midwife that my community midwife and my community midwife said she has never got to the hospital so quickly. She’s like, I knew I needed to be at your birth because like, you were gonna be super fast.
And I got in my car like, like sped down and she, my, my midwife walks into the room. And almost catches Monroe. Like she was probably, maybe, it felt like to me she was only actually in the room maybe five or 10 minutes. It might have been longer because, you know, whatever. But it feels like, and she, I was in a, I was over the bed in a weird position.
I was like, sort of standing up, but it was really uncomfortable. And then I was like, no, I need to be on my back with my legs in the air. And she was like, slow down. I was like, that there’s no slowing down. Like this baby is arriving. And she was like, whoa. There. And then it popped deeds her, it was almost comedy.
Jamie: Wow.
Gayle: Like, because he shot out. So that, in a way, I’m, I’m glad they sort of made me make that decision to have him there on that day.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Gayle: Because there’s no way I would’ve wanted that even quicker on my own, like with Dean.
Jamie: Yeah. What do you think causes you to have your baby so quickly?
Gayle: I don’t know. I mean, I do have a high pain threshold and maybe I’m sort of having contractions forehand, but I have, I have really have no idea. I have no idea because it’s, I, don’t really have it in I don’t think my mom has four and I don’t, A couple of us were quick, do you know what I mean? It wasn’t like, yeah. But not, no one warned me. No one in my family said, oh, we all have our babies quick. It was never, it was never talked about Uhhuh. So I, I have really no idea. I can, I mean, I ate loads of those dates for my to have a really soft cervix. Mm-hmm.
Jamie: That’s really impressive. So how long did this one take?
Gayle: It felt like a few hours again. It was a few hours maybe.
Jamie: Wow.
That’s amazing. Well, it’s amazing. How was your recovery?
Gayle: The recovery with Monroe? So he, I had him sort of like at eight o’clock in the evening, and so we went home the following afternoon. Yeah, the following afternoon. And we like to sort of, like we say here about staying in the love bubble as possible, long as possible.
It’s almost like not going out, not having everyone round all the time and not having visitors, just being just you and your family as for as long as possible. So that’s what we, so that’s what we did and we stayed. Yeah, I mean I just hung out. And also I think because it was November, it is you know, it’s getting dark.
It’s a lot easier to stay inside and just snuggle down and be cozy and like watch TV and lie in bed. So my recovery from the actual birth was quite naugh I would say was great. I was, I was fine. I didn’t really have any pain or, I mean, for me, the birthing of the placenta after the birth is just as painful as the birth maybe ’cause I’m more aware of it. And there wasn’t a baby and there was like. Push it out.
Dean is very, is great at not letting me do a lot, and I did a lot of lying in bed and we had some friends take Roxy to nursery and stuff so we could just hang out together. Yeah, it was really nice. It was, really nice.
There wasn’t, I didn’t feel any, anything worse, even though being older than I was with Roxy. I, it wasn’t, it didn’t feel like, oh, it took a longer time or anything like that. And I also think that once you don’t really have an, I mean, when you have one, when you have your first, you can do that sort of lounging around a lot more.
Mm-hmm. Lean into that as much as you possibly can. When you have a second, but you have a smaller child, you still have to sort of. Be attentive to attentive to them so you don’t get to do it as much as, as much as you would with a fir with your first child. So it was a lot of sort of all lounging around on the sofa together, which was really lovely.
Jamie: Yeah. And tell us how was breastfeeding? ’cause you have an amazing story.
Gayle: Yeah, I was completely lucky and I understand, I am very lucky that with both of my children they latched on straight away. Like we’re talking like straight out of, out of, out of me and onto, onto my boob. Yes, they both, la la latched on That doesn’t mean that they, they almost, I wanna say that the baby has to sort of learn how to do it, and you have to learn how to do it as well. Even if they go for the boob straight away, which they sort of almost instinctively do, which is also a weird phenomenon that they can sort of just appear and they’ll be like, right, there’s boob and I’m wanna be on it.
I didn’t have any problems with Roxy whatsoever. I mean, all the midwives would come round and we’d show the technique, and I remember we’d be, you know, looking for the babies, a little underneath their chin to be moving and going. And so with Roxy it was fine. What I haven’t said is that I kept breastfeeding Roxy until she was three. So I got pregnant with Monroe when I was still breastfeeding. And when I say breastfeeding at at three, I don’t mean like, full every day all the time like you do when they’re, they’re young, but you know, in the evening in, during the night the putting them to bed to comfort them, it’s a power, it’s a tool.
I mean, breastfeed, if you can, to be able to breastfeed for as long as possible. It, it gives you, it gives you a power that you are able to sort of comfort them you know, immediately. So I, I know that I’m completely blessed that I’m able to do that. I was able to do that for so long, and then she sort of, I would say just naturally stopped. And I was pregnant with Monroe. And then Monroe again, latched on perfectly normal. And then I would say about week when he was about three or so weeks, he he got reflux silent reflux, which is awful. And it’s just an awful thing. And silent reflux is where they don’t stick up. They’re not sick, because if you got reflux, you’re like, oh, they’re gonna, they’re sticking up everything.
They’re sticking up everything. He would bring it up, he would bring it up and then swallow it back down. And you can imagine if you’ve had reflux yourself, how awful that must be because you are not getting rid of that horrible, like, oh, that taste or that feeling of that, acid burn or whatever you get when you’ve got that indigestion and stuff, the reflux you get.
But yeah, he wasn’t, and so, and also it’s silent because he’s not really crying. He just looked really sad. Oh. He looked real and I was like, oh God, he looks really sad. I’m meant to be comforting him. I feel like I’m not comforting him because he looks really sad. Age. So what’d you do though, for ages?
Well, so I did everything that I possibly could. You feed them in a, and again, it takes away that, oh, I’m just gonna nurse them for ages and they’re gonna relax and you can’t do that. You nurse them for a little bit. And then you sort of take them off, have to take them off your boob and lift them up.
So you could only have a little bit of, of milk at the, at a time, and then you take them off and like put them up over your shoulders so they’re upright. Which is again, is awful because you can’t relax into nursing, but also you need to feed them. But also you’ll then, it’s then painful for them because they need to eat.
But also then, then they then get the reflux from it. And when they’re really little, you can’t really do much. There’s not a lot of like drugs that are gonna work. What you’re doing is soothing them. And I’m soothing them with, I mean, with lights, with music, with literally holding him.
He would be asleep. I was lying asleep up, you know. And he would lie on my chest or on my face. There’s loads of pictures of my hair. He’s literally on my face, like lying on my face. So he is so, he’s so upright. There’s also like a in a little mattress thing that you can get that lifts his whole, they’re lying their mattress up.
So he’s always at a tilt. There’s the seat that they can sit in that there’s that keeps them in that sort of sited up sit position rather than lying down. Anything, you will do anything and try every little trick you ever hear or read or ask loads of people. Luckily as I, when I had him, it was November, 2019, so three months, I had three months out before we went into lockdown, first lockdown here of COVID.
So I, I was lucky enough to have that sort of month with him and then have a couple of months, sort of January and February sort of out and about being able to speak to other mothers and get any advice that I possibly could of how, what I could do to help him and help myself and what would work and everyone would, he will grow outta it.
He’ll grow outta it. Oh, I also completely gave up dairy. I gave up dairy because apparently that’s meant to help. So, no, no milk and cheese and stuff for me.
Jamie: That’s hard.
Gayle: Yeah. Especially after you’ve gone so long pregnancy with Nat, without like eating loads of like, oh, I’m gonna not eat this, or whatever.
And then you like, oh, now, oh no. Now I’m gonna not have any dairy. No cheese though. Come on cheese milk. I can live without the cheese. No.
Jamie: So how long was it before he grew out of that?
Gayle: I’d say, so let’s say, I’d say six months. At least. Six months. Wow. It was hard. Yeah. It was a really tough time because again, you are getting less sleep than ever.
Ever. Yeah. And you feel like what you naturally do, what I was naturally doing, feeding him, breastfeeding him, wasn’t giving him comfort. And that was really, really hard for me. Really hard.
Jamie: And so how long have you been breastfeeding total?
Gayle: Last seven, basically. Seven years.
Jamie: That’s amazing.
Gayle: Because I was like, yeah, I, I mean, is there a world record I should be going for? Right. I don’t know. I think I only gave, I only gave, yeah. I wasn’t, the only time I wasn’t breastfeeding was the time that I was pregnant with Monroe. And Roxy had, and Roxy had given up, had given up. So there was probably, you know, maybe a four, five month gap maybe.
And Monroe now will still, is still, I mean, there’s still milk in my boobs. Very, but I don’t think there’s very much left. I feel like there’s, I feel like most of it is him discomfort.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Gayle: Is comfort. In the evening, but even so, it’s less and less and less now. And now he will ask for it. Mm-hmm.
Jamie: How funny.
Gayle: His boo, he’s booby Mommy, please booby.
Jamie: Aw, wow. So when do you think you’ll stop? Are you just gonna let him wean off whenever he wants?
Gayle: So, I think so. I mean, he’s at nursery. He’s at nursery. It’s not like, throughout the day and stuff like that. It’s mostly like if he gets home and he is really tired, he’ll say, come to the sofa, mommy sofa.
Like, he wants to go to the sofa and have a snuggle. Mm-hmm. Or if he is in the middle of the night. So it’s not a lot. It’s not a lot. Now I’m hoping that he will that Yeah, he will sort of just slowly, I think soon, Jamie, to be honest, I mean, you know, he’s just fall. It’s gonna be soon. Yeah.
Jamie: And mentally after you had him, how were you?
Gayle: I think mentally definitely it was different for me the second time round. I think the first time I was completely. It was the elation was, was next level. And I had a lot of work stuff going on, but again, people would be like, oh, I could still do my work without I didn’t have maternity leave because I worked for myself.
But I could take Roxy with me in a very relaxed, easy way. I would do a consultation with a, with a, with someone. And she would be lying in, lying in Wow. Next to me. And it was all just lovely and wonderful. And someone said, oh, it’s like you’ve just got a new handbag. That’s what they said to me. And she was so good for ages.
Whereas I just didn’t have that with Monroe because of the reflux. There was not, it wasn’t quite as relaxed. And he was upset more. I was getting less sleep. I was just more knackered. Mm-hmm. And when you don’t have enough sleep, everything is, feels 10 times worse.
Jamie: Yeah.
Gayle: Everything. And again, I felt like, oh, he’s not getting, I can’t feed him in the way without him being sad.
He’s just really sad. Look at him, he looks really sad. And I think that really, yeah, it definitely really affected me. I, I was, it was hard. It was hard. And then you are sort of keeping the family together. You’re keeping everyone like the family, you know, your unit and you’re still being happy because you’ve got a new baby and a, a young and a toddler.
And then we went into COVID. Which again was super hard because then you don’t have that support network around you. You can’t go out and just, it’s not even, I mean, it’s not like I was really that sort of person that I would be like, oh, I’m gonna be going to like loads of baby groups or stuff like that. I just wasn’t that sort of person. But, you know, I was always, socially surrounded by other, other moms women in my, in a similar situation. People with kids, just, you generally are surrounded by them as you go about your daily business and suddenly not to have that at all. It was really hard and really sort of isolating. I mean, it’s all very well chatting on a phone or a Zoom call or blah, blah, blah, but we all know it’s not the same.
Jamie: It’s not the same.
Gayle: No. Yeah.
Jamie: Well, is there anything else you wanna add about your pregnancy or birth?
Gayle: I wanna let people know that, that it is possible and you have to really believe that it is in your destiny. I guess that just because it hasn’t happened in your thirties, it doesn’t mean that all your twenties, it’s not gonna happen, you know, in your forties and beyond for some women. And to be able to, to give yourself knowledge and power and understand what’s good for you but do it with as least pressure as you possibly can on yourself.
But I believe that I am totally blessed to be able to have had these two children to be able to have breastfed, but it was my time, this was my time, it was my time, and it, it work has worked amazingly, amazingly well for me. And I, I’m, I’m truly lucky.
Jamie: Perfect. And do you have plans to have more kids in your forties?
Gayle: No. I think that we are done. If you’d asked me that question, when I was maybe in my, in my thirties, I would’ve maybe had, I would maybe have had more kids. But I’m I’m tired now.
Jamie: Mm-hmm. Perfect. Now, I know a lot of people talk about age and doing the math and a lot of people mentioning that other people are judging them and saying, well, when you’re this old, but your daughter asked that question. Tell us about that.
Gayle: She did. She did ask that question. She asked it last night. It’s not the first time she said, she’s mentioned it. She talked about my age a lot and works it out. She’s very clever, but she, yes, she’s sort of gone. She sort of said, oh, when you are, when you are 80, how old am I gonna be?
I’m not, am I gonna be a proper grownup though I think she’s, you know, she’s worried that I will still, she will still be a child. I, will be really old, like a grandma old and, and be dying. And also I understand, I think there’s parents at her school that are young enough to be my kids. Mm-hmm. One of her friend’s moms, you know, is 30, you know, I could be her mom.
There are, and I said to her, I said, oh, but you know, blah blah’s mom that she’s, she’s in her forties. Oh, okay. It was almost like, I think if she assumes other people are much younger and I’m the old mom especially, ’cause Dean is nine years younger than me. But yeah, it does make me, it does make me sad a that she’s thinking about that.
That’s, that’s the most sadness that I don’t want her to be carrying any, sadness. Yeah. But also, of course I have been, I did the math or whatever and so I was like, God, I’m gonna be that old when they’re this old, or am I gonna be around if they’re having grandkids, if they don’t, if they’re like me and don’t have their kids until they’re 40.
Do you know what I mean? How old am I gonna be? You know, there’s 101, there’s 101 questions that you could ask yourself or you could say, but if you are not in the position to have had kids earlier, then this is where you find yourself. Right? Yeah. It was never gonna stop me having, having them.
Mm-hmm. And I’m, I’m a really young 49. That’s right. A really young 49.
Jamie: And what has been your biggest challenge being pregnant in your forties?
Gayle: I don’t think it’s the actual pregnancy. I feel like it was afterwards. It’s afterwards doing everything else. I think I would say that the advice I would give is to make sure you are like super fit.
Jamie: Is there anything you’d recommend that would help prepare someone for pregnancy and birth?
Gayle: I would recommend for actually getting pregnant again, I, I would, I would take the folic acid. Mm-hmm. The, the higher milligram. I would take the kone 10. I would look at foods and that you could eat that were meant to help with, with giving birth. And. I would recommend maybe looking into hypnobirthing.
Oh yeah. I didn’t strictly do hypnobirthing, but I have a lot of in fact a couple of my friends are, one of my, my friends is a Hypnobirth teacher. And you don’t necessarily have to do hypnobirthing, but if you are sort of, you are open, if you are open to things going a certain way, but knowing that it’s like your, birth, your way, your pregnancy your way, it’s gonna be different to everyone else’s.
It’s, it’s not, there isn’t a textbook for it. There isn’t like, oh, it’s gonna go like this, this, this, this, and this. If you are relaxed in the way, my goal is to have my baby earth side safe and well and happy. Then how it gets there. I’m relaxed and easy about it. I don’t wanna be like overstressed or, or feeling about, or it has to go a certain way.
I have to have a vaginal birth or otherwise I failed. If it’s a a c-section, it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter. That’s your experience. That’s how your baby arrived and that’s okay.
Jamie: Mm-hmm.
Gayle: They’re healthy and tears that, it’s not gonna ma no one’s gonna be asking you later on. I, I think it’s really weird that everyone focuses on that, like around oh, oh, what sort of birth you have, but actually later on it doesn’t really matter, does it?
Mm-hmm. Doesn’t really matter at all how your baby arrived.
Jamie: Yeah. At all now, what advice would you give yourself when you were pregnant, if you could go back?
Gayle: I would probably say when you are actually pregnant to, I know people say to enjoy, you are pregnant for such a short time relatively in your life. And I think to really enjoy it. I think through the fact that I have visually, especially through with social media, I was like, I’m gonna take loads of pictures.
I’m gonna, I’m gonna take the video, however you feel about the way you look on your body. You want to make sure that that is completely documented because you are, it’s gonna be something that’s only gonna happen maybe once or maybe twice. Like the first time it happened, I was like, this is only gonna, this might only happen one time.
I’m going to, I need to make sure that I soak it all in, like soak it all up. I might have, I might have said, you know, relax a bit more and lie down and, but I did, you know, I really enjoyed being, pregnant and going out and about and being pregnant and like showing it off. If you’re pregnant, I would say go wear the, make sure you wear a catsuit.
Wear a catsuit, and, feel amazing in your body. Because being pregnant, wearing a catsuit, everyone looks just amazing. I would do it. I have a, I have a sequin. Catsuit and everyone needs one when they’re, when they’re pregnant.
Jamie: Yeah.
Gayle: Everyone needs one. Any, everyone needs one anyway. But like when you’re pregnant and you’re like, yeah, just have a catsuit, have a skin tight.
Mm-hmm. Catsuit. Parade around. I
Jamie: love it. Yours was great.
Gayle: Yes. I have an amazing catsuit.
Jamie: And where can we connect with you?
Gayle: So I I have two platforms on social media. One is my personal one where you will see me sharing my family and my kids and my parenting journey and things that, my kids have said and my opinions on, my opinions on. I like thrifting, thrifting, thrifting America, going to charity shops in England.
Mm-hmm. Pre love staff. I love festivals and sequins and getting dressed up. And. That’s just under my name, which is Gayle Haddock. And then my business one is Hustle and Fox. That’s the name of my business. And you’ll finally chatting all things small business and entrepreneurship and female founders and confidence and having confidence in yourself and your business. Yeah, on the Hustle and Fox Instagram.
Jamie: Wonderful. Gayle, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your story.
Gayle: Oh, thank you for having me. I absolutely loved it.